tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4672881018321440403.post4509305439735311027..comments2024-01-08T09:12:42.920-05:00Comments on SF and Nonsense: Humans, Pak, Puppeteers: in one wordEdward M. Lernerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15620756142619513714noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4672881018321440403.post-48169403682972465422011-10-06T09:24:16.271-04:002011-10-06T09:24:16.271-04:00Hi Beowulf,
Good to hear from you.
Curious ... ...Hi Beowulf,<br /><br />Good to hear from you. <br /><br />Curious ... that's an interesting (or dare I say, curious :-) ) choice. I await your further comments.<br /><br />- EdEdward M. Lernerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15620756142619513714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4672881018321440403.post-19980768577571917792011-10-05T23:31:15.031-04:002011-10-05T23:31:15.031-04:00Hi Mr. Lerner, I've been following your blog f...Hi Mr. Lerner, I've been following your blog for quite a while and have been mulling over your post on how we can characterize humans.<br /><br />I think what differentiates us from other species in the Known Space universe is also what describes us: Curious.<br /><br />I'm awfully busy today to provide a reasonable defense of my view, but I'll come back again this weekend and elucidate on my claim.Beowulfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4672881018321440403.post-59030526648506420662011-10-05T14:51:17.445-04:002011-10-05T14:51:17.445-04:00Hi Mike,
Your English is far more fluent than my ...Hi Mike,<br /><br />Your English is <i>far</i> more fluent than my ... anything <i>but</i> English. And many people use "eclectic" in the broader sense in which you use it. <br /><br />Of course, to say that the single defining characteristic of humans is that we differ from one another only proves my point: that a word <i>doesn't</i> sum us up. It'd be like saying all flowers are of the single color "rainbow."<br /><br />In the end, that was the intent of my post: <i>people</i> vary, and so will <i>aliens</i>. Variation offers survival value.<br /><br />- EdEdward M. Lernerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15620756142619513714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4672881018321440403.post-19590040971430041832011-10-05T14:29:09.513-04:002011-10-05T14:29:09.513-04:00Ed,
Thanks for the response. My comprehension of...Ed, <br /><br />Thanks for the response. My comprehension of the English language could use some work apparently. The dictionary definition for eclectic that you posted may not be the best for what I had in mind, perhaps “heterogeneous” would have been more appropriate. Human society, as portrayed in the “known universe” seems so varied when compared to the other race. You have the fiercely independent and individualistic Belters, the authoritarian flatlanders on Earth, and the various societal personalities seen in groups on We Made It, Jinx etcetera. You don’t see that so much with the other races with maybe the exception of the two factions within the Gw'oth.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4672881018321440403.post-75889003769551458242011-10-05T13:06:42.251-04:002011-10-05T13:06:42.251-04:00Hi Mike,
Thanks for your input. You are, of cours...Hi Mike,<br /><br />Thanks for your input. You are, of course, correct that individual differences within a species tend to be (in my musical analogy) variations upon a theme. <br /><br />As for labeling humans as eclectic ... that's interesting. From dictionary.com:<br /><br />"not following any one system, as of philosophy, medicine, etc., but selecting and using what are considered the best elements of all systems."<br /><br />The no-one-system-alone part of the definition would mean no more than "varied." But adding the choosing-the-best-parts" part adds nuance. <i>Does</i> humanity pick only the best parts from among competing systems of thought? I don't see it -- too often, we pick the worst -- but I'd enjoy seeing you make the case.<br /><br />The authorial intent, BTW, was not that the Puppeteers had any compassion for the Pak species. The Puppeteers never had a way to eradicate the Pak -- though <i>Sigmund</i> chose less death over more when he had the choice. Likewise, it was Sigmund's decision (not Baedeker's) not to kill Thssthfok in cold blood when the latter was a prisoner. <br /><br />- EdEdward M. Lernerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15620756142619513714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4672881018321440403.post-72420810412124659492011-10-05T12:25:07.268-04:002011-10-05T12:25:07.268-04:00In the context of this discussion and with respect...In the context of this discussion and with respect to the other races in the “Known Universe”: eclectic. <br /><br />As you mentioned, all the other named races have some easily recognized quantifiable characteristic that they seldom diverge from and when they do diverge, its not really a significant enough diversion to truly distinguish them from the rest of their species. Sure, Nessus is a “brave” Puppeteer, but he still displays a degree of cowardliness that seems excessive from a human perspective. Nessus’ first reaction to a stress inducing situation is almost always to curly up in a ball, even if he musters enough courage to decisively act later. <br /><br />The Kazin have shown a degree of compassion on an individual level, like when Speaker ordered the Kazin on ringworld to not hunt and kill the hominids on the Earth map, but they nearly always resort to some form of primal violence when faced with some problem or difficulty. <br /><br />Humans though, as you mentioned, display a nearly infinite variety of characteristics in a very wide spectrum of the population. So I say “eclectic”. <br /><br />FWIW, my only real criticism of the prequel was the way the Pak were dealt with. While some Puppeteer’s have shown compassion with respect to other alien races I doubt Puppeteer society and its leadership would have had any compunction against a campaign of genocide against the Pak and certainly had the resources to carry such a campaign out. They had no problem dooming trillions of sentient individuals to annihilation when they sabotaged the ringworld.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4672881018321440403.post-8502430012534357592011-10-04T12:56:11.447-04:002011-10-04T12:56:11.447-04:00Hi Yokota,
Thanks for your note. I'm glad you...Hi Yokota,<br /><br />Thanks for your note. I'm glad you're enjoying the prequels. <br /><br />I leave to Larry whether to comment about the provenance of his aliens. <br /><br />(FWIW, I have no problem believing that a species of herd animals, cowardly or otherwise, can evolve intelligence. That is: herd animals can face evolutionary pressures -- including predators -- against which intelligence favors survival. If you can't outfight or outrun those who would eat you, outwitting them seems helpful.)<br /><br />The Gw'oth are mine (and the Drar mostly so). I like to believe I'd thought them through -- and doubtless readers will be happy to point out my lapses :-)<br /><br />- EdEdward M. Lernerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15620756142619513714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4672881018321440403.post-61072780450365005992011-10-04T12:42:18.396-04:002011-10-04T12:42:18.396-04:00I'm a long time fan of Niven's Known Space...I'm a long time fan of Niven's Known Space stories and love your Ringworld prelude series along with your deeper dives into non-human sociology. <br /><br />It's apparent, though, that most of the aliens were invented for fun and later fleshed out. The thought of a race of super cats who are too stupid to actually win wars is a riot (and I love Niven's wicked sense of humor and irony), but when you read more involved treatments on the mindless agrression of Kzinti Heroes, you have to wonder how they managed to overthrow their Jotok masters in the first place. <br /><br />Likewise, how does a 'cowardly' herd animal evolve sentience? How does human money benefit the Outsiders?<br /><br />None of this affects my enjoyment of your stories -- it's Science Fiction, and if I can suspend disbelief for reactionless drives, hyperspace, transfer booths, and boosterspice, I can certainly do so for Kzinti and Puppeteers. These thoughts just tickle something in my brain momentarily, which in itself adds to the fun and challenge of yours and Nivens stories.<br /><br />The more recent inventions (G'woth in particular) make more sense to me.Yokota Fritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04808661100114872654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4672881018321440403.post-89027069124060270912011-10-02T17:13:25.886-04:002011-10-02T17:13:25.886-04:00That's a good one TS. It would be interesting ...That's a good one TS. It would be interesting to see what the 'society' of a race that evolved more individualistically would be like. Maybe the Kzin are a good example.Erikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00969701260211272581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4672881018321440403.post-49601179046758250912011-10-01T07:28:50.681-04:002011-10-01T07:28:50.681-04:00Tribal.Tribal.TShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07348435122141835641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4672881018321440403.post-59628415878107826882011-09-28T14:54:03.292-04:002011-09-28T14:54:03.292-04:00All you Pak and Puppeteers out there ... please sp...All you Pak and Puppeteers out there ... please speak up :-)Edward M. Lernerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15620756142619513714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4672881018321440403.post-86428968951371438562011-09-28T14:14:44.161-04:002011-09-28T14:14:44.161-04:00I think the adjectives that a race invents to desc...I think the adjectives that a race invents to describe individuals are relative. All puppeteers might be very cowardly by any human standard, but I doubt they would all describe themselves as cowardly.<br /><br />They probably have their own set of words. The adjectives 'puppeteer brave' and 'puppeteer cowardly' are both cowardly by human standards, but quite different by puppeteer standards. The bravest puppeteers are considered insane, but there are probably plenty of non-insane puppeteers who are 'puppeteer brave'. <br /><br />We can't think of adjectives that apply to our entire species because our adjectives were invented to describe individuals within our species.<br /><br />In the books, the puppeteers simply refer to themselves as cowards, and the brave ones like Nessus are insane. My guess is that this is just a convenient way to explain themselves to humans. The truth among puppeteers must be more complicated.<br /><br />Puppeteers probably have a spectrum of cowardice that their people are spread over, they just don't bother mentioning this to humans because humans wouldn't find it useful.<br /><br />So no, there are probably no words in human language that can describe the human race as a whole, but I'm willing to bet there are such words in the puppeteer and pak languages.Erikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00969701260211272581noreply@blogger.com